#13 – What Happens When Your Dreams Threaten Your Relationships

In this conversation, Melissa and Desiree explore the complex topic of codependency, its impact on identity, and how it manifests in relationships and daily life. They delve into the nuances of codependency, particularly in parenting and personal dreams, emphasizing the importance of autonomy and self-ownership. The discussion highlights the journey of healing from codependency, recognizing emotional independence, and the significance of supporting oneself in pursuing desires. 

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Transcript

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Welcome friends, we are so happy to have you here this week. We are diving in to an interesting and meaningful conversation around codependency and how it shows up in our relationships, how it can affect the way we dream and I'm excited to have you join us for part one of this two-part episode. Next week, we're gonna talk about how codependency shows up with God, which is gonna be its own rich conversation. I can't wait. So let's dive into this. First of all, let's talk about what does codependency mean? I know it's a big catchphrase you've had any exposure to the mental health, emotional health world, codependency is certain to be a term that you have heard before. Dez, how would you define codependency to our listeners just to give everybody a common ground that we can start working from today in our conversation. Yeah, I think that once I got into understanding a little bit more about codependency, I realized I had a PhD in it. So this is a very fun topic for me. And I think it's one of those definitions that I'm constantly working on defining to help both my own heart feel seen and the heart of my clients. But I think uh codependency can look and feel like you're losing your sense of self in service of maintaining a connection or harmony or approval. It's when your identity or your peace or your decisions are overly tied to another person's emotions, needs, nervous system state, or even their opinions of you. When I say that, can you see yourself, Mel? Can anybody else see themselves as clearly as I'm seeing myself? I'm like, well. Absolutely. I think it's such a common experience. I feel like everybody has had some level of codependency touch their lives. Some of us are slightly more 'recovering codependents' than others, but it is definitely something that I think touches humanity in general. Understanding how it shows up in our lives, how it can affect us, and then making educated, emotionally healthy decisions moving forward is really a key to understanding that it is something that touches pretty much everybody, but also there's ways to operate in continued levels of health as we learn to show up in our relationships in healthier and healthier ways. I love that. When we recognize these things inside of ourselves. And even in this episode, if you start to see yourself or see patterns, these aren't making you bad or wrong in any way. I feel a lot of compassion now for the backstory of why I've learned this as a coping mechanism, as a way of surviving certain experiences. And I think that where we want to go is oftentimes codependents, they are raised in families of addicts with alcoholism and, other, extreme situations but also just being in a family environment where sometimes you realize that if you're the easy one, you're going to be more loved. So whatever's happening in your family dynamic, you might be learning, wow, I can impact my parents by being good or doing what I think they want me to do. And so these skills are learned at a very young age as a way for survival, as a way to maintain our sense of belovedness, our sense of belonging to our families, a sense of worthiness. And that's really what we're talking about. We're talking about something that's my sense of identity, that's not fixed, but it's pliable. It can be changed. It can be altered based on what another person's feeling based on how they're perceiving my intentions. And it's a really delicate dance to start to notice how often for me, this was a big part of my life and how much it was impacting my decisions I was making. And when you talk about our sense of identity being pliable and not in a perfect world, our identity is actually secure. It is not dependent on someone else's perception of us, someone else's emotional response. Our inherent sense of worthiness and identity actually comes from the fact that we are created as children in the image of God. That is a non-negotiable, but... growing up and living in the world that we live in with, other humans and pain and trauma, we can get a different message sent to us from, often from a very young age that my worthiness is based on my performance or how happy you are or how unhappy you are. And so that's what you mean, by your saying it's not fixed, it's pliable. When actual truth is our identity is secure. And as we heal, we become more and more connected to the fact that my identity is not up for negotiation here. My worthiness is not up for negotiation. And being able to do that helps us heal in the process. Yeah, absolutely. I think that logically, a lot of us understand that like, yes, I have an inherent value, that value is fixed. However, in the felt experience of our life is that that's not certain. We are impacted in ways where we we're second guessing if that's really true. So there's a disconnect sometimes from what we consciously believe and the subconscious drivers of our lives. And so that's why understanding codependency can free you up because you can look at these subconscious motivations that are happening in your system. And you can choose, like you said, to make decisions in your life based on something else. If you see Oh, is that motivator really truth for me? Is that really what I want to be doing right now? Absolutely. How about we talk about some ways that codependency might show up in our daily life. Mm-hmm, out some, but it can look like, asking another person's opinion before you make a move or make a decision. It's like, I actually need you to tell me if you think that's a good idea in order for me to buy into it or to take it seriously. Sometimes people are feeling like this is really wise, but really they're just being codependent. They're really just asking, can you tell me if this is a good choice for my life? Yeah. Sometimes when we talk about seeking counsel from other people, often for me, I have an idea of where I wanna go already and I'm not waiting for someone else's permission. It's more, could I be missing a blind spot? Is there something that I haven't considered here? Could you please speak into that? That actually comes from a slightly different perspective than, constantly needing external validation before I feel like I can take any steps forward. And often I found when I've been in those [codependent] states, it's not just one person's approval I need. I'll often need to 'poll' two, three, four, five, 10 people before I actually feel like I can move forward because I don't have that inherent trust in myself to be able to make a good decision. It's like, I need that external constant feedback of, I okay? Am I okay? Can you tell me I'm okay? Yeah. 100%. I think my poor husband, I put him in that role for decades of our marriage. And so as you're saying that, yeah, there's usually core people, some of our main attachment people or people that we're really valuing and we're trying to look to them to understand, is this okay? Do you think this is okay for me? Then I will go ahead and make those moves. Here's a couple of others that listener may see themselves in. Not starting something or pursuing something because someone around you isn't a hundred percent on board. So, yep. I have so many things flashing in front of my mind. Another could be feeling guilty if you're wanting something and maybe the people around you are I don't say settle in a negative sense, but maybe they're happy with their lives exactly the way it is. And you actually want something more for your life. You want to pursue something. Maybe you want to move out of your town that you grew up with, but all your friends are still there. Maybe you want to go pursue a course of study, but the people around you don't have that same value system as yours. I notice it often will come up when I am valuing something that feels important to me, but potentially the people around me don't have that same value system that I do. So it's like, I allowed to want this? Am I allowed to do this? It shows up. And sometimes we want to maybe pull back a little bit because the acceptance, the approval of other people can feel so important. And sometimes like a lifeline if we don't know how to find that internal approval ourselves. good. Yeah, I think a lot of young adults and clients that I meet in their 20s share this with me as well. It's almost like, am I allowed to move on in my life in this way? They feel guilty? How is this going to impact my parents? How is this going to impact my grandparents? How is it going to impact the siblings that are left behind? Now, a lot of this sounds like kindness and thoughtfulness. But it's holding them back. They're almost paralyzed to do the things in their lives because of their perceived sense of how it will impact the connection that they have, the relationships that they have, and the emotional state of another. So codependency actually is one of those things that can look often very noble from the outside. It can look like loyalty, it can look like selflessness. And what's tricky and where a lot of the nuance comes with this is you could put two people side by side and one person actually genuinely be doing something from their own healthy sense of self-worth and identity. And they're actually doing this out of a sense of overflow. And this is what I wanna do. And the person right next to them, could be doing the exact same actions and that could be coming from this need for, know, I'm not okay if I don't make sure that everybody else around me is okay. And I remember hearing somebody say this once, that often the heart of codependency is, I cannot be okay if you're not okay. Yeah, that's such a good point. We're inviting you to look in and be like, what is that motivation? What is the heart? If my heart is saying I can't make this choice because then you won't be okay, then perhaps that could be a codependent relationship pattern, but also, like you said, not every bit of thoughtfulness or care towards another person is codependency. So I'm so glad you established that; it's really good to understand the motivation. What is the motivational factor in why you're doing what you're doing and why you're not doing the things that maybe you want to do? There are so many ways that codependency can show up. And ultimately it really is coming back to my sense of internal calm or peace is connected more to the people and the circumstances around me than it is to my own internal compass of I can be okay on my own. And we could dive into lots of other things. We could talk about stealth expectations where we don't clearly define what we need, we're not clear with what we want. And then we get upset or frustrated when other people don't read our minds and do things that we expect that they should know. I mean, all of these things can be fruit from codependency. Well, what you're talking about too is oftentimes a codependent they've adapted and they've grown this ability for hypervigilance of knowing what other people need. Because again, this is giving them a sense of value to anticipate your need to know your need to meet that need. It's giving them a I call it like a hit. This will equal connection. Ugh. And it can give that feeling of connection because you might get the praise, the accolades, you're so thoughtful. You're so loyal. So much of that positive feedback loop. So often the behavior will keep going even at times when you recognize, oh, actually there might be some unhealthy dynamics in my way of relating to the people in the world around me, but there's that dopamine hit that we get from but I love feeling appreciated. I love feeling needed. I love feeling like, oh, they can't do it without me. I mean, that brings its own kind of drug, doesn't it? Oh, I said every Enneagram two person ever. It's just what you said. I was like, yeah, go ahead and put that onto your tombstone, Enneagram twos. But it's true because one of the biggest pain points for an Enneagram two or for someone who's codependent is that that hypervigilant care is not reciprocated to the same level. It's like you can't actually get the same level of connection that your heart really needs by them doing that back to you, right? By them responding in the same way. And that is often one of the biggest pain points for codependents is that they feel really unseen. They have given everything towards caring for the emotions of others, but everything else falls flat because, well, for one, this is my belief, you're not meant to. No other human is meant to meet every emotional need another human has and vice versa. I'm not supposed to get all of my emotional needs met by another human. So we get to this point where they're just fed up. They've given and given and given and thought of the other and changed their whole life's plans and decisions based on what they think another person wants so that they could somehow be loved in the same way. They could get that connection dopamine hit that we're talking about. And if you see these patterns in your life, it doesn't make you bad. It's just in the bigger context of dreaming – one of the topics that Dez and I touch on a lot is the value of pursuing the desires in your heart, understanding that you have a unique design, DNA blueprint that you will feel most fulfilled when you are walking in alignment with that. And the risk with codependent behavior is I end up sacrificing the things that are most important to me in order to try to get a need met from out there. And the blueprint is within. The voice of God is within. And when I'm outsourcing my self-worth to you and you don't do it just perfectly, I can keep trying and keep trying and keep trying, but then also I've experienced this and I've seen it with people, is you hit a point and all of a sudden resentment kicks in and you're just mad now because I did this and I did that and why didn't you give it back? And there's this, again, stealth expectations that sneak in and now I'm upset. And then the regret, the guilt, the feelings of oh my goodness, I wasted how much time thinking that if I did X, Y and Z, it would work out. We can end up putting off the things that are in our heart to do because one, we're trying to keep everybody else around us comfortable. We don't wanna rock the boat. But then also we start feeling responsible for how will you feel about my success? How will you feel about this? I need to make sure that that everyone will be 100 % happy and fine before I can move on – or shrinking. I'll just play small. But all of these things end up causing us to sacrifice often the most authentic parts of ourselves. And the invitation is always where is there a place for healing and where can I step forward? So in light of some of the ways we've seen how codependency can play out, what are some situations where you shelved or put some dreams on hold because you were wanting to not rock the apple cart, so to speak. Can you speak to that? Yeah. I think that one of the biggest places that I've continually am growing an awareness to is codependency in my parenting and my motherhood. So this is something that's will probably be my lifelong journey. But also, I was raised to really understand that I was supposed to be able to somehow, if I loved my kids enough, I was connected to God enough, if I prayed enough, I was gonna be able to somehow impact their emotional world, their future. Maybe they wouldn't struggle. If I could do this just right, like if I'm just really being honest. And I... protect them from all harm. That has been a measure for me that I felt so much shame anytime one of my kids experienced any type of pain because I thought I must have failed in this codependent understanding of my role as a parent. But you know, when I think about the decisions I've made in life, and these are all so nuanced because there was a time of my life that I homeschooled my kids for about six years and a lot of my authentic heart loved homeschooling my kids. And a lot of me was also in the same way trying to make sure that they wouldn't have certain pains, mostly some pains that I had had in my life and some made up pains, future projections of what could happen. And so there was a lot of fear, but I would say that when I felt inside myself that I didn't really want to homeschool anymore, it hit so much because I thought to myself, am I even allowed to not show up in this way? I think a lot of women understand this because we come by this so honestly; we birth these beautiful things, we sustain them with these bodies, they are completely dependent on us. And this sense of autonomy or agency is very slow growing for their systems, right? And their brain development, they need us really close. And then we suddenly get to this point where I'm like, am I allowed to have a life outside of this experience of motherhood? I mean, I love being a mom. I love it deeply and dearly. But I often believed that if I were to make a certain decision, again, this is the shame story, if they were to have any pain or struggle or challenge because of my choice that would therefore mean that I didn't love them. I wasn't a good mom. And I think these things hold so many of us back. My sense of identity was the ability to impact my kids the pseudo sense of control that I had. And so was like, if I'm not that, let's just go there. And so if I'm not doing that, what am I? Am I even allowed to have a different understanding of how to relate to these people that I love with my whole heart? And so hopefully that answers the question, but it took a lot of time for me to untangle the false sense of identity, the appearance of control, because it's completely false. I wasn't actually in control of their emotions or the choices they were going to make and the life that they were going to lead and the path that God had for them. I'm not that powerful. I didn't have that control, thank God, but I believed that if I let go of it would be to let go of loving them. And so I had to untangle those two meanings that they're not the one thing. yeah. do this right, I'm not loving my children well. I mean, my goodness. Right. Yeah, it was, it was very stressful. Yeah. but it makes so much sense. It's so relatable as a mother myself, we wrap, like you use the word on untangle There's so much wrapped up in what does it mean to be a good mother? What does it mean to protect my children from the evil of the world? And it just comes from... like a pure motive. And we talk a lot about nuance and things like this. It can be mixed with other motives in there as well. There's some great motives in here and there might be fear-based motives affecting my behavior and the reasons why I'm doing things. 100%. Parenting is one of the most nuanced experiences that we can have because part of the whole reason we have these kids is like they were attached, right? We want that secure attachment. Then they need to disconnect. But in that whole time period, they need us, but don't need us. It's such a challenging time because they need me, but they don't need me in the same way. You have to stay open, but they can't completely disconnect, but they need to head that direction. And no way am I saying that homeschooling was bad. I'm just saying that I had a lot of mixed fear inside of that. I had a lot of trying to control the outcome. And I realized I was parenting in fear and I I was gonna reap the outcome of fear. So sobering. I'm still doing it. I'm still unpacking it. Same girl, same. It's so real. For us as women of faith, allowing God to have ultimately, I think part of what's helped me is recognizing that he loves my kids even more than I do. And so as hard as I am working, and the best that I'm doing and is sometimes mixed up as I get, leaning into the fact that he is the ultimate Father, the greatest parent that has ever existed. We watch his kids do crazy things sometimes. I've still turned out okay, know, despite some of the crazy in my life. I like to think that and just being able to lean in a little bit of like, he's got them too. I love that you shared that because I see parents and mothers do this, it's like, if I don't parent like this, how do I actually know that I'm loving them if I don't have that sense of control over them? And you're gonna have to relearn new ways of love. And I think that that's... what I think the heart of undoing codependency is, is finding safe, true love, belovedness, a sense of self outside of doing something or controlling somebody or certain outcomes. So you're undoing that understanding. And that takes time. That's why I'm going to be doing this for the rest of my life. Yeah. Were there any specific catalytic moments where you recognized that your love, not that it wasn't love, but some of that codependent love needed to shift where you went, oh, mama needs to deal with this here because it's not actually bringing the fruit that I was hoping it would. So many moments that I've failed my kids and was super codependent and part of the gift is, taking ownership and asking forgiveness now, which I'll probably be doing hopefully for the rest of my life. A lot of what we're talking about is agency and autonomy is also a healing factor to codependency because you're letting that person have their sense of themselves, their emotions, their experience of you, and then you get to stay with your own sense of self. But I have a good friend and she's in her sixties and we were catching up and I'm asking her about her parents. And she shared with me and I'll never forget it. She said, I feel the most loved when my 80 something year old parents go to the doctor, when they go to church bingo, they go to Bible study, they quilt, they go on their walks. That makes me feel so loved as a child. And I thought to myself in that moment, this powerful truth that transcends no matter what age you are as a parent or child is that children need to see their parents have autonomy as well and be powerful in their life and make good choices for themselves and take good care and have a sense of themselves outside of their kids that really impacts us, even as 60, 70 year old people. And the opposite is also true. If I'm safe when my parents are doing this, then I can feel safety when my kids go off Mm. in the world when they have their own paths, when they figure out their careers and they make a few mistakes and they learn as they go and fall in love and break their hearts or whatever, it helps me understand that, this is their autonomous journey and it's safe for them to be on it as well as for me to have a sense of me that's separate than them. Mm-hmm. It's like that compass of sorts. always re-center towards it. I'm like, is this true for me? Then it can be true for them. If it's true for my parents, is it true for me? And I take these concepts and reorient towards a sense of autonomy in my parenting. And it's a full-time job for me. And so empowering to your kids. And when you were sharing about the friend who feels safe seeing her parents take care of themselves, go to bingo, those kinds of things. If I'm codependent with someone else, then there's something in them that's allowing me to be that way too. And so, I recognize some of the strongest codependent relationships I've had has been because the other person has been codependent with me. And so what I heard you saying with her feeling safe because her parents are taking care of themselves, it's like, oh, actually I don't have to be responsible for you. What a relief. Sometimes it can feel a little sticky. I've had to extricate myself from codependent relationships before and I'm sure you can speak to this too. It can feel really sticky when you start recognizing, oh, I might need to put some boundaries in place. My healing journey is actually causing me to confront some of the stuff that's been in my relational dynamics in the past. And sometimes that can feel a little messy because all of a sudden you're changing the rules and the way we've always done it isn't going to actually fly from here on out. And so there can be messiness in that. And also when we start moving to places of health on a subconscious level, we start giving other people permission to not have to manage our emotions because what I heard you saying with your friend, my parents are now doing things to take care of themselves. That lets me off the hook of having to be responsible for their emotional wellbeing, their spiritual wellbeing, or they can go to Bible study and actually get some spiritual needs met without me. They can start getting their emotional needs met without me. And so it can feel a little sticky in the extrication process, but when we move to the place of healthier dynamics, all of a sudden, it's like a weight comes off your shoulders because you go, oh, mom and dad can take care of themselves. So that's what I even hear you saying with you giving your kids that opportunity and you demonstrating even. When parents demonstrate healthy autonomy and healthy agency, gives their, it's like show and tell, I'm gonna demonstrate to you what this looks like and I'm gonna let you feel it in the relational dynamic with me, because I'm not just gonna say it, I'm gonna live it. And when we practice what we preach and there's that internal alignment and intention, it actually affects the atmosphere around us on an energetic and spiritual level because we start living healthy. You can't actually fake healthy identity. You can't fake I'm not codependent if you're codependent because it's gonna show up everywhere. And so a lot of what I hear you saying is like, we start to change the atmosphere around us, which then allows our children or the people who are affected by our lives to feel what it feels like on a nervous system level, on a spiritual level, on an energetic level of, this is what it actually feels like when mom takes care of herself. Oh, I don't need to take care of mom. Oh, actually what a relief this is. Do you have thoughts to add to that? I loved it because so much of this is modeling to me. I'm literally learning how to reparent my heart while I'm parenting my kids in a way of saying, you're safe to have autonomy. They're okay. You don't have to control. Like there's new ways of feeling connection and safety and attachment and love. I'm doing that from my heart while parenting them. As you were talking about just even some relationship dynamics that you've had, Mel, I'm wondering if you would want to share with us has there been a time that you've chosen peace for someone else over purpose for yourself? You got stories? I feel like this could be its own episode of just let's share times where codependency drove major life decisions. gosh. Yeah, exactly. I mean, here's one that comes to mind. When I was in my early 20s, I spent a season at a church and got really involved, really loved the people there. It was a really special season in my life. And while I was there, the current worship pastor resigned very abruptly. I had a background in music. It came to the pastor's attention that I knew a thing or two about music. And they're like, hey, Melissa, how about you be the next worship pastor? And I was like, what? And I ended up saying yes and honestly was not ready for it. Didn't want to, really it wasn't in my heart. I understand there are times and seasons where there's an invitation to take risk and step out and be like, okay, I don't really feel ready for this, but there's an opportunity here, but this didn't feel like that to me. This felt like me trying to appease somebody to be the good girl, to step up and help out, which I had been raised in an environment where service was highly valued and serving and especially serving in church. And so I ended up in this position and felt so far out of my league, I spent the next, 18 months, almost two years or so in this position and felt like I was drowning. And yeah, it was hard. And... when I ended up moving back to my hometown and going back home and I ended up leaving the position behind when I left, it was one of those experiences where I recognized benefit of hindsight, I really should have just said, no, I'm not up for this. But I felt... the pressure and the, I want to be a good girl. I want to do my part. I want to step up where I should have drawn a boundary. Had I known what I know now, it would have been a solid no, but I put myself through so much stress, so much anxiety. I felt constantly like I couldn't catch up. I didn't know how to ask for the support that I needed. I didn't have the language because I was deep in my codependency years – deep, deep, deep in the codependency season, didn't even understand the concept of autonomy or agency. And so I ended up going along and kind of limping my way through, but because I violated my own internal sense of, actually, I don't want to do this. And I said, yes, anyway, it affected my ability just to even do worship and stuff like that. So then when I had opportunities to play, to sing, I felt quite a strong aversion to it because I had so overextended myself and what we would use in the emotional health world. Like I'd so self-abandoned by doing this. I made the people around me happy, but at what cost? And the cost for me, is that for a significant period of time after that, I really struggled with anything to do with worship. It was one of those painful lessons where I said yes to appease somebody else and I had to reap the consequences of that decision for some time and it took me a significant period of time to heal from that where I actually even felt okay about playing again. I love this because we're talking about how it shows up and where it might be present in our relationships. And these are people like you really cared about. And I love this story because it's worth looking at. and when we do, you know, make decisions from a codependent nature of like, I'm wanting you to feel good about me or to think this way, a certain way about me, and I don't want to disappoint you. It actually will impact your life. And that's what we're trying to be like, hey, let's grow in some awareness because it has deeply impacted our lives and the trajectory of it. Yes. That was a situation where somebody else wanted me to do something that I didn't want to do, but it also can show up with not going after the things that are in our heart because we're worried about the reactions of other people. So that was someone else's dream that I was saying yes to that wasn't mine. But we can also say no to our own dreams because we're afraid of the person's response as well. Dez, has there ever been a time you've put things on hold because you were concerned about their reaction, you might hurt them, you might disappoint them, you might step on their toes, they might get a little jealous? Absolutely. I think that with my closest friendships at times, this has been one of the areas that I'm growing in noticing codependency Mmm. I've resisted at times doing the thing that I want to do because I felt like I was going to be too big and people were going to leave. Oh, yes. Like, is that lovable? If I start a podcast, are you gonna still like me? Right? are we still good? Will we still have the connection? And so they're like little, I would say little speed bumps where I'm like, yeah, that's the codependent part where I've understood in context that if I can make sure someone's feeling really good about themselves and our connection that I can have a sense of we're going to be okay. It's caused me to pause, there's things I've held back. there were big wins that I didn't share with anybody cause I didn't know how that would make them feel. I'm taking ownership because this is definitely about this is the old way of believing. And a non-codependent part of me would be like, I'm just gonna share it and you can be happy or not be happy. You can celebrate me or not celebrate me. You can remember this or not remember this. It's gonna be okay. To allude to what you touched on you taking up more space. If you were a little kid and you didn't feel like there was a lot of room for you to have space, emotions, be big, anything because you're busy managing all the emotions of everybody around you. And then when we're an adult and we go, what does it look like for me to take up more space? Those younger parts of us can show up and kind of be like, well, are we allowed? Am I allowed? Is this going to be okay? Or is it going to bring negative ramifications? So it's a real, it's a real conversation. It's a real conversation. This pertains to not just these deep friendships, but you know, random people, people we don't even know on the internet or PTA moms. I'm just like, we don't even talk like who cares? You don't even like who really cares, but it's driving people's decisions. It's driven my decisions; it's controlled my life and what my sense of belovedness or belonging or identity – it's impacted it. I've allowed that to happen. And I see this in my clients, I see this in so many people. And that's what the benefit of noticing, that's codependency. There's another option. There's a different choice. you mean I don't have to keep doing this the way it's always been? Exactly. That's a huge part of our heart behind this conversation is to shine the spotlight on common human behaviors that Dez and I have both found ourselves in more times than we can count. Both of us have made personal decisions that there is a different way, there is a better way and taking active steps towards walking out a healthier way of expression in the world with our relationships, with our kids is highly worthwhile. Dez, is there anything that cued you to recognize, I'm moving out of codependency and I'm stepping into a healthier version of myself, a healthier expression. How did you know? Maybe even in answering that, you could share some signs that perhaps the listener can recognize in themselves of like, I'm starting to move out of codependency. I recognize myself in some of the crazier aspects of it. How do I know when I'm actually making progress? Great. Well, I think overall the growth here is I'm okay if another person feels a way about what I'm doing. So maybe they feel happy. Maybe they feel jealous, maybe they feel triggered by me doing this thing. And the ability of being like, that's okay. You're allowed to have that feeling. It's okay that this is hard or this is great or this is challenging or this is pushing on something you really want to do. I love that. You know, I love that for you. So the ability to be okay when another person is having a certain emotion, a certain experience by what I'm choosing to do, how I'm choosing to do it. I've just grown to let that be more comfortable for me. Even my kids, they could, they could be mad at me. They can feel a certain way about me. And I think this leads to this concept of even if you're mad that doesn't make me bad. Or maybe you're sad about what I'm doing. That doesn't make me bad. Your emotional experience doesn't automatically equate that I'm doing something wrong or that it's bad. So I think that those are huge signs for me. And when I'm talking about parenting or even about my relationships, I'm just getting used to being more comfortable with them feeling uncomfortable. And even growing in our own ability to sit in discomfort. And it's like, oh, we are two separate people. If you're an empath or you are sensitive to other people's emotions and the energy of other people's emotions around you, it can be so easy to feel the emotion and then let it start its own domino effect of emotions in you, which is classic codependency, but recognizing you are your own person and you can feel, think, behave, choose what you want to do, and that is separate from me. And I can have my own emotions and feel and... they do not have to be the same. I do not have to jump on the mad train or the defensive train or the apologizing train just because you might be feeling upset about something. What I'm hearing you say, you're redefining that love is holding another person's autonomy, as well as your own simultaneously. That's like the new definition of loving. I'm allowing you to have your sense of you and your experience and your emotions and your beliefs and your opinion. And I'm loving myself and doing the same for myself. Yeah, And I think it can be applicable just in our day-to-day relationships, but when it comes to dreams and stepping into those desires in our heart, healing from codependency is a significant part for many of us. I do think there are people who are just naturally born with a level of autonomy. I think of my son, he is like, I'm going to do what I'm going to do. And codependency isn't the top challenge that he would face in his life. Not everybody has the same challenges with codependency, but for many of us stepping into dreams requires us to confront some of those codependent tendencies that we have because we have to reach a point where we decide my desires are worth pursuing even if they do step on someone else's toes. But I have to choose and only I can make this decision. Ultimately, this is not something I can outsource to external validation. There's an internal decision that we all have to come to of is this worth it? Even if it rocks the boat, even if somebody might get upset, even if someone might be having some mad or sad feelings about this, is it still worth it? Autonomy and self ownership is the antidote to codependency. So it's this understanding of the love and connection I want to have that I'm trying to gain through codependent tendencies. I can actually own that I can do that for myself now. I can be in connection with myself and provide a level of safety for my internal system that when things happen, when hard things happen, when people have experiences, when my kids fill in the blank, I can still have a sense of groundedness inside of me. You're the person that you need. Mm-hmm. m calm and heal and soothe and comfort the anxious part, the part that doesn't know, am I good? Is there anything you'd want to say to our listener, as a little blessing to their heart? If I was the listener sitting with you and they've just shared, I have desires in my heart. I'm scared to go after them because I'm afraid of rocking the boat. What would you say to that listener? Yeah, I would tell them, especially when it comes to their dreams, that you're the one person that can say yes to your heart and your dream, and you're the only person who can really shut you down. Nobody else can actually stop you. No one has that power but you. You're the person that you desire and want. You're the number one supporter. You need to say, yeah, that's worth dreaming. That's a good plan. I like that. I love it when you go for good things. I love it when you try and you take up your space. You can be that champion for your own heart. And you're what you've always longed for. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thanks for being here today, friends. We will be back next week with a part two on this codependency conversation. I'm excited to dig in to the topic of codependency with God. Stay tuned. You won't want to miss it. See you next week, friends. Bye.