#14 – When Your Faith Keeps You Small

In a world where our relationships are often shaped by expectations and attachments, it’s easy to fall into patterns of codependency, even in our spiritual lives. In this enlightening episode, hosts Mel and Dez dive into the complexities of codependency with God, sharing their personal experiences and insights to help listeners break free from limiting beliefs and nurture a healthier relationship with the Divine.

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Transcript

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Ooh, Dez. Welcome back. I am excited about today's conversation. It is a topic that is near and dear to both of our hearts. It's got a ton of nuance and it's an area where we've both experienced quite a lot of deep healing. Yes. Even as we were praying before we hit record, I know our heart was really that the listener today would experience deeper freedom in their own heart. topic we're going to discuss today is codependency with God and how that can affect our ability to go after the desires and dreams in our hearts. Yeah. Yeah. one. To set the stage a little bit, Dez and I both have a relationship with Jesus and we both have an extensive history of having to walk some of these things out in our own lives. And we recognize that there's some freedom that we found that we really wanna hand keys to other people. We also recognize that you are in your own season, your own walk with God. And so the conversation that we're gonna unpack over the next 30, 45, minutes is simply the tip of the iceberg, which is really how do we begin to see God for who he really is and not the God that organized religion or other people, maybe our relationships with parents, with leaders. No person can accurately represent the heart of God apart from Jesus. So undoing some of the lies that we have believed about God is a big part of the process that we have been on individually. And a big part of the heart behind even why we started this podcast was healing not only our relationships with ourselves, but our relationships with Papa God, with Jesus, with understanding who he really is. Our heart behind this conversation today is recognizing some of the ways that we have had dysfunctional relationships with God, what we've done to heal and how that has in turn liberated us and the passion that it stirred in our heart to see other people set free as well. Yeah. What would you add to that Dez – anything? Absolutely. I think that especially on the tails of our last episode, a heart that is geared toward co-dependency will naturally begin to relate to such a strong attachment like your attachment to God in co-dependent patterns. This isn't a matter of God having some issue or problem. This is really about the ways we're relating to God, what we're believing about Him, what we understand about His identity and His autonomy in relation to us, that we're really wanting to very delicately express our own stories, maybe highlight things that you haven't seen, but also give you full autonomy and authority to govern your own hearts. You're allowed to take what you want from this conversation and leave what doesn't serve you. When we talk about God, it can be one of the most triggering and important because it's one of the most, it is the most important relationship we have. So things that I'm sharing can set off certain belief systems inside of you and vice versa. And so we're, wanting your heart to know that you have full autonomy. Take good care of yourselves when we're chatting about this. Yeah. And you don't have to take our word for it. In fact, if this conversation stirs up questions and perhaps thoughts that you've not considered before, then we encourage you to seek it out and study it out and test it for yourselves. Believing what I believe so far, is it bringing me life? Is it bringing me freedom? Because where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Yeah. Jesus said, came to give us life and life more abundantly. So if the things we talk about and the breakthroughs we had spark something that brings a sense of life to you, well then I'd encourage you to explore it further. If it goes clunk, and you're like, yeah, I don't know about that. Well then feel free to shelve My biggest request today is come with an open heart because I feel like we're gonna touch on some sacred cows here today. There might be a little bit of mooing in the background. Because we have had to confront those same religious beliefs in us. And it was on the other side of confronting those beliefs and even taking the risk of my goodness, how dare I challenge some of these things that we grew up with. It's on the other side of dare I say the word deconstruction? Am I allowed to say that? On the other side of some of that deconstruction is where I've actually found incredible freedom and my relationship with Jesus has gone to a deeper level, not a more shallow one. Let's talk about how spiritual codependency or codependency with God can show up. Take it away, Dez. Share some ways that you have seen spiritual codependency show up in your own life. Maybe the way you've seen it shown up in clients or just being a part of church culture. Where does it tend to rear up? So many ways, so many ways. I think Fundamentally, I had a very anxious attachment to God. I want to preface what I'm talking about this. I always had a, yes, I wasn't solid in his affection towards me. And so I was geared to try to secure that affection Yes. in an anxious way by those codependent tendencies of hypervigilance. What is God feeling? Is he grumpy? Did I piss him off? Is he unhappy? Is there something he's wanting to tell me, but I'm just missing it? God, I felt that way so much. I related to God in a very powerless tendency because I thought if he has all power, and so this is another codependent thing when I'm just highlighting. If he didn't do it, then that must mean he doesn't want me to have it. So I would ask for something or I would pray for something. And if he didn't do that thing, then it must mean that he didn't want it. For example, I wanted to buy a house. would pray for a house, but if it didn't somehow drop a house in my lap, I didn't get the house. I literally lived like this, you guys. This humbling. Yes. So yes. We see this in so many people. It's like, why I want to get married and I prayed. So why doesn't God give me a husband or a partner? And this is like, if he doesn't do it, then it must mean that he doesn't want me to have it. doesn't come galloping up to my front door while I'm sitting in my house, knock on the door and say, I'm here to rescue you and be every heart's desire to you well then clearly it wasn't God's will. It's like, I'm so humble because this was a huge part of the way I was relating in such a codependent, unhealthy, powerless way of relating to God. And that added up decades of decades of relational experiences like this definitely added up. I also thought, Can I even ask for something like a house? Is that too selfish? So I really disqualified desires if they weren't other oriented. I I became a missionary at 18 years old. So my whole point and scope of life was to save the whole world. And that was my one life's goal and intention. I always thought that God was trying to measure me. according to that goal. And so I often disqualified anything else I wanted, like rest, for goodness sakes, a car, like just basic things. I call them basic now but at the time often disqualified myself because it wasn't for another. I think that that's where people are missing the true heart of God too, because they think He only wants us to think of others. Yeah. We forget about the love your neighbor as we love ourselves. And also forgetting that we're as much a part of the kingdom that we're building for other people. We're in that kingdom too. And so it's easy to be very externally focused, often at the neglect of our own needs, sometimes our own health, our own mental health. I mean, for sure. come close to burnout more than once, and I know you can speak to that as well, by being so externally focused in service of God that I have burnt myself out on the altar of sacrifice. Yeah. I see people. abandoning themselves constantly, over extending themselves on the altar because they actually think that that's pleasing to God And I think that's why we want to share this is that we have a wrong view of what it is that he's asking for. And in that wrong view, we end up giving our bodies, we go to burnout, our families suffer, our marriages suffer, our kids suffer. I'm speaking for myself, we've given up everything and we think that that's what he's requiring. We think that that's what he wants. And that's a very codependent way of relating to him. It's a codependent view of God that he only is happy if I do this. This is the thing that's gonna make him feel good about me or love me or wanna be with me or wanna save me or wanna help me in my life. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And what we've touched on even in last week's episode, that was our part one, but it's this belief that my behavior is going to have a significant impact on God's mood, on his ability to be happy. often project our own past experiences onto him of, oh, when I did this, my parent didn't like it, or so-and-so got into a bad mood when I did this and they told me it was because I made them feel this way. So it's so easy then to think like, if I don't get this right, um God's gonna be really unhappy. I can affect his day. I can make him have a bad day. might not be able to be happy if I can't get it perfect. I mean, completely disregarding the sacrifice of Jesus. and the fact that he fulfilled everything so that we are restored. No, and so it's these things that sneak in that we don't recognize impacts the way we show up in our lives. And I was jokingly talking about women waiting for their knight in shining armor. And let me just say, if you're listening to this and you want your husband, I pray you find him. I'm not throwing any shade on you about wanting to get married. The reason I bring it up is because it has been heartbreaking for me to listen to people waiting and not just their husband waiting for meaningful desires in their heart, but having, like you said, Dez, such a passive approach of I can't do anything about it because I'm not allowed. And that's one of the ways that codependency shows up. I need a sign and then I needed another sign. And then I need three prophetic words and a trumpet blast out of the sky and at least two angel appearances. And then maybe I can take a step. because I mean, it's funny, not funny. I know. And then if the person behind the pulpit doesn't give me permission, I mean, this was a huge one for me. I had such a weird relationship with authority. I was constantly waiting for permission to do anything. And the reason I felt sad is I've sat with some beautiful people. And I talk about women because I've had more conversations with women who wanted to get married than I have had men. But if you're a guy and you relate, if the shoe fits, wear it. But waiting for dreams, other things, business ideas they wanted to start, things that would be beautiful and good and would benefit and create income streams for their family and bless people. It's like, well, if it's God's will, it will just happen. I mean, the number of times I've just heard, if it's God's will, it'll happen. And I'm like, well, what about the authority that God gave you to go in His name, to... on earth as it is in heaven. That's part of the Lord's prayer. Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Well, Jesus is in heaven. So who's gonna do that now? I mean, if it's not gonna flow through me, who is going to actually bring the kingdom to earth? And I want to expand. We can get these narrow viewpoints like, okay, well, I can be a missionary then. I can be a pastor. I could be a worship leader. I could be an itinerant minister – sometimes have this narrow definition then of what it looks like to bring the kingdom. And we forget that we can bring the kingdom through our parenting. We can bring the kingdom through being a doctor or a lawyer or bringing kingdom business into the world, kingdom finances, creating the nonprofit, doing the thing. This is where we're going to start touching onto dreams in our hearts, but seeing God as separate and that his will is separate from mine and that I can't trust to the things inside of me. And I can't take action until I've had so many confirmations that sometimes the opportunity passes me by, it hamstrings us. I say, heartbreak, and I feel a mixture of sadness. And then sometimes I'm hesitant to say righteous anger, but a frustration that where I just want to take people and I want to look at them in the eyes. And I want to say the desires that have been placed in your heart have been placed there by God. If he knew how to knit you together in your mother's womb. If he created your DNA, if he gave you a gift and a call, the gifts and the calls are irrevocable from God. If he put those things in your heart, then you need to tune into what is going on in your inner world to actually recognize what to do and what the desires are. You're hung up about what your purpose is. What is the thing that you long to do? What is the desire that you have? What I hear you saying, this is so powerful, this is a huge shift from waiting for permission, waiting for an authority figure, for that pastor, for that prophet, for that someone to say, you should be doing this thing. You're moving from there where you're the authority. Did the prophet recognize this gift on my life? Because if they don't call it out in front of the whole church, I probably can't act on that. Oh yeah, I know. I mean, I can't even tell you how many hoops I've jumped through because an authority figure said, okay, well, you're a woman. You should do these things. But the transition from waiting for another to give you a authority to what you're saying right here so gorgeously, filled with passion: the permission that you seek has already been given to you and you can trust your desire and inherent value – a shift from God being a parenting type figure where there's a little bunch of little babies out there, like little toddlers. They don't know what they're doing. They don't know if they touch this, it's gonna burn them or, from parenting a toddler, yeah. It's a legit season. it is a legit season, but are we really toddlers forever of the faith? Is that really how our parenting is like? No, as our kids develop, as they grow, as they're getting older, as they're moving out, do we not naturally as human parents also begin to treat them and relate to them and just inherently trust that, you wanna go try that? Great, that's a great idea. I don't have to micromanage. Any thoughts that you might have about that? Mm. I think you're touching on spiritual maturity and the way we relate to God when we're first learning how to hear His voice and those seasons where I really am waiting, what is the next stop? God, I want to hear you, I want to obey you. I have had very significant seasons where obedience was really highlighted to me. I'm feeling the nudge to go speak to that person. I am feeling the nudge to do this. What we're talking about here is not a black and white conversation of like, I'm obedient to God. And then all of a sudden I grow up and I don't listen to him anymore. It's the growth into maturity of when our children are little. And when we're spiritually little, there's a level of involvement where God directs us and I think it's what loving parents do. I don't want my kid to put their hand on the hot stove. I don't want them to run out into traffic. God it either. And so I think recognizing that sometimes not only is it removing lies and believing truth about God, but there's also recognizing that as we grow and as we mature, the relationship with God naturally grows and matures as well. I think that's another important point to consider. I don't want my three year old making life changing decisions because that would be unhinged for me as a parent to do. That is not the time for them to do it. For me, part of the way I recognize maturity was that Jesus would start giving me choices on things and saying, you choose. I remember very clearly there was this time I had options. I had three to four different options of a path I could take. This is not a good versus bad, good versus evil decision. They were all opportunities that I could have. Doors were open. And I said, okay, Jesus, what should I do? I'm kind of thinking, he's going to tell me the next step to take. Cause my heart was to acknowledge him. And he said, you pick, I'll bless it. And I was like, I remember choking on that decision for weeks because I was not used to feeling like God trusted me. Wow, same. And it highlighted that I didn't know how to trust myself. And I think that is, a side effect of codependency, both with people and with God, is we don't learn to trust ourselves. We don't learn to trust our own inner voice. We don't learn to trust cues of our body. We don't learn to trust our own discernment. And so I remember having this decision and I agonized, for weeks. And I finally was just like, Jesus, are you really not gonna tell me? He's like, no, I want you to choose. And I made a decision and I walked forward and I just remember it was a good decision. I was so happy with my decision. But I truly believed that had I made one of the other decisions, I could have been equally as happy with that as well. It finally just came down to, I need to make a decision. And that really... was a catalyst for me in moving into a season of my life where I really started to believe that one, Jesus trusts me. And I remember him saying to me once, Melissa, I trust you more than you trust yourself. I need you to start trusting yourself more. And I was like, oh, okay, what does that look like? But also just moving into a place of permission granted, moving forward as though the light is green until it's red, rather than everything is a red light. And that I need five green confirmation lights before I can even take one step. Absolutely. Wow. What would you speak to that Dez? I'm sure you have some thoughts to add. Are there any places where you recognize that you were maturing? You were stepping into greater breakthrough in your freedom in your relationship with God? When you were sharing about the growth that you were experiencing and, true spiritual maturity, I was just thinking about my kids and how, part of them getting ready to be independent is learning to know what they need, make that decision and stick with it. part of maturing, period. The benefit is exactly what you're saying. You're trusting yourself, you're feeling that confidence of I made the right thing. Those are really important felt feelings inside of a maturing young person, well as inside of our spirituality. I had such a deep sense that God was a gatekeeper of my dreams. Yes, let's talk about that. Let's talk about that, because maybe someone else can relate and not just me. Talking about this very powerless, powerless to God, powerless in my own life to get anything that I wanted; needing that permission, feeling that he was a gatekeeper. I really got to a place of utter disillusionment, so much hope deferred. I was literally sick. in so much burnout, my body was broken and I was very ill, literally ill. And I remember coming to this place of either God is a real jerk, I've prayed my guts out, I've prayed my heart out, I've acted in these codependent ways, I've given my whole life to him, I've been a missionary, I've served him, I've... submitted to authority. I've submitted to my husband. I've submitted to the church. I submitted to everybody. I was like, either he's such a jerk and he is just holding out on me. Like he's actually doesn't want my heart to loved and happy and fulfilled or I'm missing something – there's something that I'm not seeing or not understanding about the true God that's creating this same outcome over and over and over again. for me, oh, Well, that's what rock bottom will do for you people. If you find yourself there, it's okay. I had to confront it. The way I had been surviving and relating to God wasn't going to work anymore. It just wasn't going to work. And again, of your life you didn't have the peace or you said your physical body was breaking down. I would say I was constantly heartbroken because again, I was always making him upset. Every hard thing in my life had some shame narrative of I was failing God and that's why he was allowing this to happen. I didn't do what I was supposed to do when I was supposed to. I missed something. I mean, with my whole heart, was trying to figure this out. If effort could do it, I would have figured it out, but that apparently is not what this is about. And so, transforming the understanding, I'll call it my theology of God, of how he was actually wanting to be involved, of how his heart was towards me, and towards the things of my life, the things that have happened, and also the dreams, the things that haven't happened yet, that changed everything for me. That created so much safety because now he guy who was holding out on me. He wasn't the dad who wasn't paying attention and being emotionally present with me. We're reliving our family patterns with God over and over again. I was like, that's not actually him. There's something else. There's a part of how I can engage in my own life that he's wanting me to learn that will set me free to feel loved as a daughter and connected to who I am and connected to God at the same time. Were there any specific instances where you actually can look back? I know I can think back to that one instance where Jesus said, you choose, I'll bless it. Do you have any moments where you felt, actually the real Jesus is showing up here inviting me because it's not his heart that you stay in bondage either. Well, because I had viewed him in such a way of gatekeeping, I did not trust myself at all. I thought I was so evil. I thought my heart was so evil. I think the turning point for me was getting to a place where I could understand that God wanted me to untangle the codependent perspectives I had about him. He was really happy and delighted in me thinking, yeah, that's not true. Your sense of me being grumpy with you or that I'll take it out on you in any given moment. He's like, I want you to get rid of that. I want you to be free. And I think for me to understand that that was Papa's heart of love towards his daughter of I don't want anything that isn't loving and true between the two of us. So you're free to get rid of it. That has been one of the most stabilizing parts of healing my co-dependence with God because there's this overall sense that he wants this. What if he even brought me to rock bottom, not because he had to, but what if he allowed this to happen so that I could get something from it, so I could be free, so I could actually get the true connection and the true ability to see him as he is from all of it? So that's what began to shift for me, is the sense of him being in it with me. Mel, when did you learn that desire could actually be holy? I remember being in a small group years ago with some friends. And it was a really powerful group because we'd gone quite deep together sharing our lives, sharing vulnerable things. We'd built a lot of trust. And I remember one day having this aha moment. I realized that as much as we associated vulnerable conversations with painful things that had happened to our lives. I remember having this aha moment and thinking, desires are really vulnerable too. And sharing that with my friends in this group and talking about it and starting to talk about desires. I would have called it one of the healthiest groups of friendships that I've ever been a part of. And so there was this organic flow is as we were healing together. I remember one of the ladies in the group said we should start sharing our dreams with one another. What if we all took turns sharing? And I just remember feeling so much life on the conversation. And there was this collective sense of, ah yes, wouldn't that be amazing? And so we created this space to start taking turns sharing things with one another. And because we built so much safety, even though it was a vulnerable conversation, there felt like a strong invitation to begin to give expression to some of the deeper desires of our heart. Sometimes it was things that we really felt God had spoken to us and highlighted, but it wasn't just limited to a Bible verse, scripture reference, a prophetic word that we got. As we became braver and braver with sharing the things in our heart, what happened was things started coming out that felt very, intertwined with our identity. As we shared with one another's things started shifting and things started happening. And there was this acceleration and this fuel poured on people's desires as we prayed and as we collectively ushered in a space for people to share. It was like their own God given DNA and identity started coming online in a new way. And we saw these things that people were almost afraid to say out loud because they were so vulnerable and almost like a throwaway of like, I'd love to see this. I remember one person saying, I would love to dance in church. And she almost did it as a throwaway comment because it was difficult for her to say, but when she shared it, this part of her essence came online and we thought, yes, of course. And so for me going through that process with people where they gave words to desires that were deeply within themselves. To me, it was like putting an exclamation point on who they already were and enhancing a part of their natural self-expression. When I see people step more into their identity and if owning desire makes them more alive and stirs up creativity and stirs up passion and stirs up gifting, to me, that is their unique expression of God and the earth. Yeah. agree. By undoing codependent thinking and beliefs and ways of relating to God, you can open up a very expansive, a very God dwelling inside of me. I mean, you know how many people have come to me weeping because they think that they're being selfish because they want to adopt a kid. I'm just like, well, you should absolutely do that. But they have disqualified themselves because they're thinking, oh, God probably wants me to be happy with the kids I already have, which I'm sure he does want us to be happy with what we have. But this is what's so powerful. If you understand that Papa isn't trying to limit you, but he's trying to speak through what's already inside of you to do, to desire. That's the place where he and you connect with Emmanuel. And that's what I hear you saying desire is holy. It's so unique. Everyone has such a unique thing. People want to bake bread and they want to write books and it's so diverse. If the whole world would just connect to the thing in them that's their unique expression of God, it would be such a wonderful planet. It would be so good. But oftentimes I think that people are just waiting for God. If he hasn't said yes yet like, oh, I don't know, he hasn't had that man call me out. I used to think that people were just gonna come out of their house and give me a house. The keys to the house. It's such a real experience, which is I think why I can feel so much passion here. And you can find how your heart has just come alive with how holy and sacred desire is. And that's why we hold this space with so much passion and so much purpose, but really for the listener to even think about maybe there's places and maybe there's times that perhaps you are waiting for permission. Maybe you have a desire? Maybe you have a dream, but you're asking God to show you. Maybe there's those places that you can notice – is the desire the invitation already? Mm-hmm. I think it's a Ralph Waldo Emerson quote that says, desire is possibility seeking expression. And I've sat with that quote a lot because, there's a larger conversation. We said this at the beginning, we're touching the tip of an iceberg. There's a larger conversation around, is my heart good or bad? And we don't have the time or the space right now, but at some point, you have to make the decision that your heart is good. And you can't take one verse in the Bible about the heart being deceitfully wicked and disregard the many hundreds of other verses in the Bible that speak about the heart in a positive light. And that's its own conversation, but I found that the first decision I had to make is I have to begin to trust that my heart is good. I have to begin to trust that God is good and that he takes no delight in letting me crash and burn in my life. If I've said I want to acknowledge him in all my ways and he's promised that he will direct my paths, at some point I have to trust that he's going to do that – to your point about asking for a sign, there's times I do pray for a sign, but In the absence of a clear sign, I operate on what I know to do.

And some key takeaways that we could leave our listener with: 31:38

first of all, where are you holding back waiting for permission from God when he's not withholding permission at all? He's already said the light is green until it's red. I think if you can make the decision that your heart is good and then start making decisions from a permission granted standpoint. Those decisions alone, my heart is good, I can trust my desires, I can trust God to speak to my desires and I can move forward with the light is green until it's red mentality. You would be amazed at how empowered you will feel by simply beginning to act on those desires already. So good. I would encourage you to believe that your agency and your autonomy is not a threat to God and God's agency and God's autonomy, which was very messed up for me for so long. So when you operate in your authority for your life and you have a sense of knowing you and of knowing what you want or what you like – I love baking bread, or, fill in the blanks, whatever it is, that doesn't hurt him. It doesn't take anything from him. As a parent, my kiddo knowing what they enjoy doesn't take anything from me. It's not a threat to me. How do you begin to even believe that God's not threatened by you, by your sense of you, and that He honors it? Yes. when your kids are doing something that lights them up? It brings me so much joy. And so those two are huge shifts, from a codependent way of relating to recalibrating to this is a truer, more loving, more holistic view of God. And then the way I relate to His identity in that way will be transformed. So I love that. in doubt, think about what a good parent on earth would do. That's been a big game changer for me. What would a good parent on earth do if I'm struggling to understand exactly how God would parent me? What would the best parent that I've ever known or that I could even imagine, what would their stance be towards their children pursuing a desire of their heart? Are they going to want to empower them or disempower them? Are they going to want to champion them or gatekeep, like you said? Sometimes when we don't ask ourselves those questions, those lurking subconscious belief systems continue to drive our behavior. And neither you nor I want to see people spend another year, two years, five years, 10 years, waiting on a desire that is in their heart, that God has granted them the agency to begin moving forward with. similar to what I shared as one of the big key things is that God wants you to pick this up and to go for it. He's welcoming you to notice the places of disconnect, of codependency, of powerlessness. He's okay with us getting to that bottom level, like either God's a jerk or I'm missing something. He welcomes that place because of the freedom it brings. I offer that for a listener who might be finding themselves at a crossroad of something's got to give, something's not right, so what is it? And being able to be really honest and look at it, I think it's so healthy. And understanding that challenging deep seated beliefs can feel scary. I know when I've challenged some of these beliefs, I've been really afraid that I would somehow fall into deception and screw it up. Is that something you can relate to? I was like, I'm going to burn in hell just from looking at a bad theology of God. These theologies were devoid of any grace and any love. There was a lot of manipulation and control and fear inside of it. But yes, I agree. It's one of the most delicate relationships to untangle false narratives and false belief systems. And I recommend to all my clients and to myself the same, I get to take the rest of my life to slowly untangle them with Papa, with Holy Spirit. And I think that that's also a really important pacing. It doesn't have to be an overnight transformation. You may have major ah-has from time to time. There's been certain moments where big things shifted for me, but a lot of it is just the day in, day out. You were designed for relationship. You were designed for a personal relationship. Getting to confront some of those beliefs, it can feel really scary. It could feel awkward. Sometimes there's moments where it can feel a little bit lonely, especially if you're asking questions that maybe other people aren't asking in your circles. But I think if there's anything I'd want to leave you with, it's that God is much bigger than that. And his heart is inherently rooted in love and goodness towards you. Don't be afraid to challenge the areas of your life where you are not thriving; where you're feeling like you're in survival mode and like Dez said, where you're at those crossroads where something has got to give. Because we've both challenged a lot of things and we can both say from personal experience, we have learned to lean into giving our desires a voice, taking action of them, counting them as worthy of being heeded and learning to walk them out hand in hand with Jesus and surrendering things. It doesn't always turn out the way we think it's going to, but neither one of us silence our desires anymore out of some weird wonky theology that actually keeps us playing small, keeps us codependent, and keeps us from making the impact that we intuitively know we were born to make. So good. Thank you for being with us listeners. Thank you for hanging with us episode. And if you want to reach out and any insights, any ahas, go ahead and reach out to us on Instagram and share this episode if it's helpful. Thank you guys so much. We'll see you soon. See you next week. Bye.