#32 – How Codependency Shows Up at Every Stage of Parenting

In part 2 of this 4-part series, Mel and Dez explore the ways codependency manifests in parenting across different developmental stages, from infancy to adulthood. They share snapshots from their own lives and work to bring clarity to this nuanced topic.

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Transcript

Understanding Codependency in Parenting

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Road Back Podcast. We're so glad you're here. I'm Melissa and I'm Desiree. We're two trauma-informed coaches and real life friends.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

If you're returning to yourself, your dreams, or your sense of belovedness, this podcast is for you.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

We'll pull from our own stories and hard-earned wisdom to support your journey. So take a breath and remember, you belong exactly as you are.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Welcome to this week's episode, friends. We are in part two of our series on codependency in parenting. Woo-hoo!

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Dun dun dun.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

That's what I heard. Like, oh my god, run for the heels. In case you missed it last week, here's a quick recap. We were discussing some of the root causes of codependency and why it shows up. It's often linked to our own childhood wounds and experiences. And then we also did a broad overview of the ways that codependency can show up in general in our parenting. And in this week's episode, what we're going to do is dive in more deeply into the developmental stages of our children and how codependency can show up in those stages. So we've broken it into four categories. It's going to be codependency in infancy and toddler years. We're going to talk about some codependency in the elementary years, then in the teen years, and then even as our children move into adulthood and how when we haven't healed our own codependency and our own trauma, it can carry on throughout life. And you may even see the ways this crops up in other relationships outside of parenting, because obviously if we're codependent in one area, we're typically going to be codependent across the board, showing up in different relationships in our lives. But this is just going to give you hopefully some deeper insight into the ways that you might see yourself showing up if you're a parent in ways that you'd like, oh, actually, I'd maybe like to heal some of that and let my child develop and even my own development as a parent. And then you might even see ways that you were parented that will bring some insight into perhaps why you felt the way you did or the the experiences you had. So hopefully it's going to provide a little bit of aha. I know Des and I have been on an extensive healing journey in our own lives. And it's been fun, even as we've done the behind the scenes work of preparing for the podcast and telling on ourselves, as we like to say, going, oh my goodness, I can't believe that shows up for me. Yes, I still do this. So yeah, you're giggling Tess.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Because we know it's true, right? There's we've got we've got examples. I would just encourage the listener to go back and listen to the episode before this, just so that they could catch up. One of the hearts behind it as we dive into this is that there's really no shame that this is happening. It's a human experience, it's a human adaptation that we grow and develop as a survival skill in order to maintain connection. And to notice that we're using that instead of more healthy, autonomous ways of connecting in our parenting is the goal here. Not to shame, but to move towards that more autonomous sense. And I'm literally doing this each and every day with my kiddos. So let's review it just really fast like what is codependency and how could we summarize what that might look like to the listener?

SPEAKER_00 3:29

I think one simple way of looking at it is when I'm in a place of codependency, I am feeling overly responsible for how someone else feels, their emotional state, their responses, their behaviors, their actions. I am losing myself in trying to take care of other people. And in that, I often can neglect my own needs. Sometimes I don't even know what I'm needing or feeling at any given moment because I'm so wrapped up in trying to manage the people around me. And that can often look like on a more subtle level is I can't be okay unless you're okay. Yes. And your emotional state is directly impacting me to a degree that's not just empathy, but actually a step beyond that, where I actually feel like I can't really disentangle myself and my emotional highs and lows are very linked to yours. What would you add to that, Des?

SPEAKER_01 4:24

I think the sense of I'm not sure you can have an experience and I can have another experience. Like if you're sad, can I not be sad? If you're mad, does that mean that I'm bad? Those distinguishing statements of this

The Impact of Codependency on Emotional Regulation

SPEAKER_01 4:39

person's feeling one thing or my kid's feeling this way, and am I allowed to feel a different way? There's a term that I like to use is like, can I distinguish where they begin and I end, or vice versa, where I end and they begin. And so hopefully as we talk about these places that you might see yourself in and then even break it down by ages, you might determine, like, oh yeah, that's where I didn't know where I ended and they began.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Let's just do a quick recap of like the broad 30,000-foot view of how it might show up in parenting in general. And then we'll go into more specifics with each age range. It could be feeling overly responsible for your child's emotions. It can be a difficulty in letting them experience any level of discomfort. Your mood rises and falls based on their mood, a strong need to be needed. It can be a difficulty in maintaining your own identity, goals, life apart from your child. You can feel guilty when you're choosing yourself in healthy ways, like an overly strong sense of guilt of, well, I'm taking care of myself here, but am I somehow going to damage my child if I put a boundary, if I make them go to bed so that I can have some me time? And then kind of overarching all of it, I see it as like parenting from a place of fear rather than from a place of trust.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah, that's really good. I think this l last overview that I really like is that it's this overall belief in parenting that if we sort somehow figure out how to get it all right, right, right, then our kids will never experience any discomfort. There will never be disconnection, there will never be challenge. I know I've believed it at times. I was like, if I can figure this out, then my kids won't have issues, I won't have issues. And that is a very important thing to even notice. I think that that's an indicator of a meshment or of a false sense of overresponsibility of a child's experience. So those are things to definitely look at.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

And it links to an even deeper need of I'm just trying to feel safe. I am concerned about my child, but often what it's linking to is my own internal capacity to be able to handle a disappointment or handle rejections. How does it affect me? And so often those little hooks that can get into us and trigger us into these codependent behaviors are coming from our own unmet needs as kids, which we we discussed in length in the last episode. So please go back and listen if you're wanting to hear more about that.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

All right. Well, it's been a it's been a minute since we've had younger kids. But understanding children, especially in infancy and those toddler years, is they really do not have any way to regulate their nervous system. Yeah. They do not know how to regulate their emotions. So you see a lot of two and three-year-olds feeling level 10 feelings about their ice cream cone falling. And that is age appropriate. It is very age appropriate because they don't have those internal checks and tools to tune in and to notice that rise of the emotion. A little bit of psychoeducation is that you know, emotions are felt in the body. They're a physiological experience. And so as you feel them inside of you, they will have a natural peak. And you might even notice this, like, yeah, there's feelings I've had like of sadness or embarrassment. And I hit that top and then it'll ride down. And oftentimes, what you're noticing in an infant or a toddler is they're hitting 10. So it seems like zero to 10. And you're like, whoa. And so a lot of our managing at that time can show up where parents are actually dealing with their own discomfort around the kiddo hitting a level 10 about their favorite song not coming on the show, or they want to repeat their favorite song a hundred times and they can't get their way and they're losing

Navigating Infancy and Toddlerhood

SPEAKER_01 8:36

their mind about it. And so, what your capacity is is what you're extending to your kid. Because what children at this age were definitely need is co-regulation. They need you to use your tools to check yourself to feel safe and regulate your own feelings about how they're handling it, and then go to them and help them co-regulate.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

I didn't understand this fully. When they were little, I didn't even know what the word co-regulation was, let alone what it meant. I think of some of the emotional roller coasters that I went on. And again, through that lens of compassion, I was doing the best I could when a baby is an infant or you're sleep deprived and you're nursing, especially when you're a first-time mom. There's so much emotional uh nuance in the experience of being a new parent as it is. And so I think something that we'll potentially revisit in this conversation is that this isn't a black and white conversation. You do want to be attuned to your child's emotional state, especially when they're a baby, they can't articulate what they need. So that importance of being in tune with what they need is a vital part and it can get disguised as devotion. You know, it's like, oh, I'm such a devoted mo mother, is sometimes when we slip into this place of perfectionism where it's like, I'm not allowed to make a mistake. If I make a mistake, I'm gonna screw my child up. And, you know, this almost overly obsessive concern about am I doing it right? Am I getting the right behavior? Am I setting them up? If I can do everything perfectly, then I will be okay. Especially when we're overcoming our own past experiences and our desire is not to recreate the cycle, that can sometimes show up as this extreme concern about I I can't make any mistakes because I don't want to scar my children or anyway hurt them.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Yes. Yeah. You know, I was thinking about myself. I I think if I could, I would go back and tell her like emotional dysregulation in your kiddos is okay. Like when you talked about being perfect, there was almost a sense that I could figure out a way to do this or to parent, and they wouldn't have discomfort, they wouldn't have level 10 emotions. And I see young moms and dads feeling this now, and I would almost want to be like, it's okay. That's that's what they're supposed to be developing and learning. And I love that you spoke to the nuances because in infancy, they actually need that ultra-attunement where you're helping them distinguish the world and their own emotions through you, you know, mirroring to them, oh, you're sad, you're hungry, you're tired, you're you're helping their brain develop in that way. But then we go through this process where they have to slowly, very slowly create agency and have autonomy. I would say, especially toddlers are actually learning emotional regulation and they're dysregulated a lot, and they're supposed to be. So our job is to not be like, if they're not feeling okay, I have to shut that feeling down so I can feel better. And I think that's the key in codependency. We're oftentimes when they're having the fit and they're uncomfortable, even though we're like, no, it's bath time and no, you're gonna go to bed. The reason we resist is that we don't want to feel the discomfort inside of us. And so they're feeling yes, yeah. And so we allow things that we wouldn't, you know, in our adult brain, we're like, you have to go to bed. But we're like, okay, five more minutes, because we just don't want them to feel that way. It's really us tuning in to notice inside of us to use our tools as adults to internally regulate in order to not become responsive to their dysregulation and then parent from that place.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

And that's where our own stories can mix in too. And what was my experience as a child? Sometimes it could be an uh like a knee-jerk reaction. I'm gonna do the opposite. There was no tolerance, or my parents were too authoritarian, or something like that. So then I do the pendulum swing to overly lenient because I it was too much, or really is that expression of our own internal state. Often my parenting is just the expression of my own internal world, really, of what's going on in me.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

I actually think that's the gift of parenting, to show you your internal world. Of course, there are moments where our authentic self is online, but I think if if we could even understand that in this like in a moment like this, I'm like, yeah, one of the one of the main points is is to learn yourself and to grow your own ability to notice things happening inside of you so that you can choose to show up in a different way, to parent it in a different way, to someone who's learning it herself right now.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

And it's so true that children are resilient. Sometimes I think our knowledge of the psychology behind things and then we've gone on our own healing journey, it's beautiful and that it's given me tools, but I also don't want it to become a detriment in the fact that I'm then overly obsessing about, oh, is my child's attachment going to be okay because I didn't quite respond in the best way in that moment? Or oh my goodness, am I they gonna be in therapy in five years because I didn't do this thing right here? Because it's like this beautiful double-edged sword that you can have. And I I love having some of these tools. And I I have to allow myself to be human. I mean, I kind of look at myself and I'm like, had some crazy things go on growing up, and I've turned out okay. You know? Yeah. Can my can I trust that my kids will turn out okay as well?

SPEAKER_01 14:14

I think

Challenges in the Elementary Years

SPEAKER_01 14:15

this is useful at all ages of parenting.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

I do I use this language all the time and help myself balance into out of fear and into a little bit more safety that I'm like, yeah, I can see all my kids as adults going on the same roadback journey as me and be like, oh my God, my mom was so dysregulated and so codependent, and she makes so much sense, and I make so much sense. And yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

I love that. Any other thoughts about infants or tallers? I think it can definitely be a time where I can fall into self-abandonment a lot. There were definitely times where I wasn't eating, I wasn't sleeping, I wasn't taking care of myself because I was so wanting to make sure that I was taking care of the baby in every way. It can be a place where if you haven't been good at prioritizing your needs in the past, it will definitely show up here. And so there was a lot of, I would have said, neglect of myself.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

When my children were very little, especially my oldest two, because I didn't really know how to set good boundaries and how to prioritize myself in any way. And it was really just an overflow of a lot of other things that I had experienced. So I think that was that first invitation into the mirror of coming face to face with some of maybe some of the dysfunctional patterns that I'd had over the course of my life. But I do think that the neglect and maybe you could say self-abandonment on a level, there's a fine line between going, oh, you know what? They're actually going to be okay if they cry for five minutes so that I can go brush my teeth and go to the bathroom. Or, you know, are they gonna going to be that scarred? It could not feel like that. In the moment, you can kind of be feeling like, oh my goodness, no, it's all level 10. Yes. It's it's an emergency. I I have to solve this right now. Yeah. For me, even the toddler years where I was face to face with my own judgments that I'd held against other parents, even of like, well, my kid's never going to behave that way in public. And then, you know, what happens? Little little Johnny has the meltdown in the middle of the aisle in the grocery store, and you're like, okay, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

And humility 101. Mm-hmm. I was actually thinking about that. I how from an outside perspective, you don't realize how much of the dynamic you're seeing in the grocery store is actually a very nervous system dynamic. It's like the parent's nervous system, it's the kiddo being dysregulated and the how the parent handles that dysregulation inside themselves. I had no idea. You think it's cognitive. You think like, I'm just never gonna do that. I just can make a decision to never let the kid throw a fit. And you're like, oh wow, I had it really wrong. I had no idea how that would feel or look and how that would affect.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Own shame that gets triggered in those moments of like my identity is more wrapped up in other people's behavior than I thought it would be.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Yes, or what people are thinking about my kids' lack of emotional regulation. I just have a lot of compassion because there's so many hormonal things that are happening for mamas, and it's this level 10 feeling that every need is vital in your kiddo's body. It's such a biological experience. So there's so much compassion as we've taken a little bit of space and feeling a little safer to be like, oh, that's them, they're okay, and then this is me, and I'm actually okay too. And the world's not falling down because it I remember feeling like the world was falling down when the when the baby was crying. And that's a lot of hormones. It's really a biological miracle and huge transition that's happening in those early, early months and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

One other thing that I would say is when you struggle to let anybody else take care of your child, or oh, I don't trust anybody else to take care of the baby, I don't trust anybody to come over, I don't trust anybody to watch them. And there's this overly protective place that could stem from all sorts of reasons. But if you could be rational for a moment and you step outside and think, okay, is it really true that nobody is safe to take care of my baby besides me? Or could this be something unprocessed in my own life that is causing me to be overly worried or fearful about something happening to them if I am not there at their beck and call, which then can spiral into, you know, you not getting the breaks when you need them or you not being able to step out and care for your own health or personal well-being because of being so overly concerned about the child's welfare and nobody else can do this but me.

unknown 18:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

I do think that we are God has given our children to us for a reason. So there is something about I need to trust myself and that I do have the discernment of for what my child needs better than other people in general. But when it spirals into the place that nobody can take care of my child or I can't leave the house and I can't do anything, that can sometimes be an example of codependency. Yeah. I've I was totally there.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

I've been there, done that. I was like, I don't even think my husband can do this. Yeah, definitely can show up.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

All right, let's dive into elementary years, Des. What what are some ways that you think that we might see some codependent parenting styles when our kids are in that four to twelve-year-old range?

SPEAKER_01 19:15

We named this section school aged. They go to school. And all of a sudden you're noticing developmentally, scholastically, emotionally, mentally, you're able to notice what I'm gonna call deficits or discrepancies from one kiddo to the next. It's a time where I notice a lot of parents are like, well, you know, at home, we knew this was happening. Like we understand our kiddo like this. I see a lot of parents have a lot of shame because of the meanings they're attaching to what does it mean that little John can read in first grade, but he doesn't know how to make friends. Right. And so there's all these areas where I think parents will get into this determining of the child and their own value based on where their child is lining up against these other kids. And so I notice a lot of shame and I I notice a lot of times we create meanings. I know I did this. What does that mean that my kid can't make a um a friend? And then I'm like, I project, and all of a sudden now he's 29 years old and da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And I'm just like, whoa, this is his first day at kindergarten, you know? I think that that's an important thing to notice because if you start to future trip based on this experience, especially any anything that might be coming up in these really heavily developmental years for kids, their brains are still coming online. I know that they're walking and talking and leaving your house for a couple hours at a time if they're going to public school, but their brains don't really develop fully till they're 24 years old. So kiddos are just very malleable. They're resilient. Everyone comes from a different starting point. So it's really important to even notice what story you're telling yourself about you, about your parenting, about your value or your kids' value based on what might be showing up in these school-age moments.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

I think that it can show up sometimes in a difficulty in allowing our kids to struggle. We don't want them to feel any negative emotions. I was joking around with Des before we hit record today about how I have a personal issue with eighth place trophies when it comes to sports and stuff. This conversation, well, get it, girl. Understand the sentiment behind, you know, wanting kids to feel loved and celebrated and all those things. But I also, I'm just one of those parents who I believe that learning to handle disappointment, learning to handle, okay, I didn't win. Somebody else was actually better than me. I don't think there's anything wrong with allowing kids to have to work through difficult emotions. And it can be one of the ways that codependency can most should Show up is our own intolerance. And I mean, I have actually been the parent who has struggled at times with my kids. I'm like, oh my goodness, they got rejected by their friend. I can't handle this because I don't like feeling rejected. And so we we can project our own feelings and emotions and then struggle to allow them to work through something difficult. We want to rescue, we want to fix, we want to hurry up and intervene before allowing whatever the circumstances to run its natural course. And rather than being that, hey, I can be here for you and we can do hard things and helping them work through something difficult, we can try to cut it off before it actually gets anywhere. And we're we're doing it in the name of like, I want to be a good parent, I want to be loving, and I want to protect my child. But what are we creating on the other end if we don't teach our children emotional resiliency? So relatable across all ages.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

But especially when you enter into this school age, they're getting exposed to these new things. And so they're naturally gonna be challenged. They don't know how to do this, they've never done that before. They've never learned to be in a team, they've never made friends or figured out how to turn in stuff.

Understanding Parental Motives

SPEAKER_01 23:12

And I see often the experience of your child struggling, transferring some sense of value to the parent, or I'm so uncomfortable, like you said, to watch them struggle that I intervene and then I become a super great involved mom. Like that's that's what I think is so risky. And there, this is so nuanced. We're not trying to say all involved moms are codependent, but oftentimes we can get away with things. And then what's happening is we're just hovering or helicoptering over the kid and be like, oh, there's discomfort. I'm gonna go in and rescue, or I'm gonna interview and I'm gonna talk to that parent and I'm gonna tell the parent that the kid owed it something, something, something. And instead of just letting the kids figure it out. And I wasn't perfect at this either. But I think it's an important thing because it's more about my discomfort around what they were feeling.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

And what message are we sending to the children? If I have to constantly jump in and rescue you, am I subtly sending you the message that I don't think that you have what it takes to be able to do something hard or to be able to bounce back? I help you develop resiliency by giving you a chance to do something challenging, maybe fall down a few times, but your ability to keep getting back up and keep trying, you don't stop your baby from trying to walk. You don't say, Oh, thank goodness, she fell over once and bumped her knee. Like, oh no, now we can't learn to walk. It's like, no, a child develops a sense of I can do this by being given the opportunity to fail and then try again. We're using the word nuance a lot. This is where motive matters. There are times that I want to be involved in my child's life because it's the right time and it's a season and I have a heart for it and I have the desire and it's actually really appropriate for me to get involved in the way I have. But then am I also getting involved in another situation because I'm afraid or it's a it's a control thing, or I'll like, I want to keep an eye on them because I don't trust that this is going to go down. It's so the motive is really something that I can't sit from the outside and tell you what your motive is. That's something that each of us as parents and individuals need to sit with ourselves and go, okay, what's driving me here? Is fear driving me? Is love driving me? Is this a fruit of the spirit that's actually causing these behaviors? Or is there something else getting mixed in here? I don't think it hurts to have those check-ins every now and then. What's the fruit of how I'm behaving right now? Because I think the fruit won't lie. Yeah.

Navigating the Teen Years

SPEAKER_00 25:36

So good. Let's talk about the teen years now. We're both in the throes of parenting teenagers in this season. It has been a big learning curve for me. So uh, yes, Des. Share some of your well-earned wisdom about what you learned about codependency and teenage years of life.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

For one, I enjoy having teenagers so much. They're like incredible creatures, and I'm learning so much, but it's also a lot of fun. So I'm just gonna preface that. But I think it's really important to note teenagers, you're like they're in high school or junior high. They start to drive. They're they're doing kind of big people stuff, but they are still developing so many things and they need so much support and care, but it's beginning to change. If you can understand attachment in all this, the infant needs that attachment. It needs mom or dad 24-7. The toddler is exploring independence. The school-aged kiddo is developing skills inside of some level of autonomy. The teenager is a huge continuation, but I think often because they look like my kids are taller than me. You know what I mean? Like they're as tall as me. So you're just like, oh, they're big. But no, there's still a lot of need for support. Yes. And oftentimes this is why um I think people struggle with teenagers, is because some of their capacities and abilities to regulate because of puberty seems like the it shrinks or it goes backwards and like you're acting like a kiddo, you know, like a small kid. But I think because of hormones and things, I think that is also a misunderstood experience for for teenagers a lot.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

You're saying how their hormones affect their emotional regulation skills.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Yes. Yeah. And I think they get really misjudged by it, but it's like a biological experience. If you, if you think of a child in that development framework that we're talking about, I'm like, that's actually appropriate for their hormonal experiences. They're working a lot of things out. And they're more than ever discovering their autonomy in a really crucial way. I find that a lot of parents, and I'm one of them, their development of autonomy will feel like rejection. Yes. It will feel like a hit to that attachment that you've had all those school-aged years where you're the main person. Because oftentimes teenagers are creating attachments with their peers. Have you noticed that? Now their friends are their their main people that they go to, their boyfriend or girlfriend's their main person. So start putting you in a different place in their life. Absolutely. Now, the feelings of even rejection or loneliness make a ton of sense. But also, it's important to not react from that rejection towards your kiddo at this time. Of course, it's okay to feel sad that, like, oh, whoa, they have friends now and I'm not the same. But I find that that's a pain point in parenting teenagers. And often if my sense of self is connected and I'm enmeshed in my value and there's like those blurred lines again, when they're asking for autonomy, it might feel like rejection.

Avoiding Emotional Enmeshment

unknown 28:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Yeah. And I think that emotional enmeshment can sometimes show up, especially sometimes in teenage years, if the parent starts oversharing, that can sometimes be a sign of codependency. You're right in the sense that they do have more emotional maturity. And sometimes they seem like a mini adult. And so if you're not careful, you can start sharing things with them and you're like, well, wait, is is actually appropriate sharing at this point? And there's no judgment here. Maybe a single parent household or the marriage isn't great, or those kinds of things. And so the child ends up becoming this confidant for the parent, but it's not a healthy way to relate to your kid.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

I find that that moms with daughters will tend to mesh a little bit more because when you become a friend or you're sharing too much as a mom, and how that's kind of like blurring those lines. One way to think about it is this is actually not a reciprocal relationship. Good point. Their kids aren't that for you. They don't have the ability or the capacity to reciprocate a relationship to meet. I think we can get certain needs met from them, but we shouldn't ask them to reciprocate those things to us.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

I think that that's just a good indicator. It's such a good thing to notice at this age.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Yeah, that's a great point to make. I am still a parent with a child. They still actually need parenting in this season, even though they can seem a lot more independent in ways. And I mean, this is can sometimes be where power struggles show up too. If you've had issues with control and being overly controlling with your kids, that's sometimes where I think you get some of that more intense conflict, even because there is this power struggle where they are, as part of their healthy development, needing to begin to step out more and more on their own. And if you struggle with control as a parent, you can kind of just call it what you will. Oh, I'm just helping you manage your life or I'm helping you make good decisions. But it can be also where we feel afraid of how much leeway do I give them because if I'm afraid of them making a mistake because of what that might mean about me or because of my own fears, then how much am I trying to control them into the what I would call quote quote appropriate behavior or the appropriate decisions when this is actually a perfect age, especially while they're still under my roof. Yes. To let them make some decisions and then be able to sit down and talk through some things. Okay, did you make a mess here? How are we gonna clean that up? Not taking on their responsibility, but kind of being like, okay, I'm here to guide you. You're not out of the house yet. So how do we sit and talk through these things? Whereas if I'm trying to manage everything, that's gonna make it harder for them to be able to make some mistakes and then us be able to have appropriate conversations and repair where that's needed.

The Push-pull of Parenting Teens

SPEAKER_01 31:41

I think this is such a crucial developmental phase because we have to incrementally let go, but also be right there. Like that's what I hear you saying. And then we have to stay close because they need, they need to be able to come back. We need to be aware that they're learning to do this. It it is a very push pool. I think that's what that kind of takes the toll on teen parents is that we're like, okay, we're there. Okay, oh no, you don't need me. Okay, we're right here. Oh, and so it sort of feels like that back and forth experience. And it is taxing. I mean, it was it is exhausting and super fun and challenging because it's great to see them go out and then it's like, oh, oh, we're back, okay. Oh, you're gone. Okay, you're back, okay. And not needing to control everything is that ability to like let them go out. And then when they do need support, you're there. And that's kind of the trick of this age group. It's letting that one step forward, two steps back kind of happen incrementally as they become more and more autonomous and ready to leave and lead their own life. Because self-governance is something they have to be developing intensely at this time.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

It's age appropriate. It's a time that I've seen parents try to still vicariously live the things that they wanted to do but didn't do, whatever it was. Is it, did you want to do more sports and you didn't, or you want to live vicariously through your child's accomplishments? One of the things that I've really been thinking about a lot, because I have an 18-year-old, a 17-year-old, and an 11-year-old, is how do I, like the Bible says, train your child up in the way they should go? One version I've seen it say is like according to their particular gifts or bent. And so it's one of those places where I think codependency can sneak in when we are like, oh, well, I see their potential. So they should do this or they should do that. But how much of it is me wanting to work my own unresolved feelings of potential or accomplishment or things? Where do I have that weaving into my agenda for them? Where can I learn to say, actually, this is what they are gifted in? This is how do I encourage environments that will help them develop into the person they are created to be, not just necessarily the person that I want them to be in order to help me fulfill my own unmet needs that might be showing up in the season as well. I've definitely seen some of that crop up with me. I'm so glad you spoke to that because I think shame we were talking about shame.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Like I've had so much shame at the kids in the teenage years. It was like he's he or she's quitting swim team. What does that mean about the kid? Or what does it mean about me or their future? And I think that's important to like people who hold on like that vicariously living through our kids, and I need to figure this out. Oftentimes there's so much shame meanings that we're giving of what happens if they don't do that. What if they don't get into the school? What if they don't get that grade point average? I love that you said that language at the beginning, just unhooked all these places of fear and how I've parented in fear because these kiddos, they have pressure to have these GPAs and to take AP classes. And I'm like, no, girl, no, we don't need any of that. Like, I'm like, it's okay, you know, if you get a B, no one, no one knows after you graduate. And I'm not trying to tell you to let your kids get bad grades. I'm saying that there's a lot of fear and anxiety that we can use to control our kids at this age. I would rather parent from a different motivation and a different energy. I would rather them understand their inherent value and hard work and self-love and understanding what they need. Oh, yeah, I need rest. Like in this season, I need more of that. I'm gonna not play da-da-da-da-da. I'm like, I would rather them get those things than for me to have a fear and then parent my kiddo and force them to do a bunch of things so I don't have to feel afraid for what that means about their future. Because if I'm just hearing shame stories, I've been there and done that. And um I think that's uh a relatable challenge.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

It speaks back to that resiliency too. Do I really believe that if they don't do X, Y, or Z, that there won't be another opportunity? Or maybe they will have a regret in the future because they didn't do something. Do I need to manage those regrets? Do I need to manage those disappointments? Or can I trust that what they might choose to do or choose not to do right now is ultimately going to still set them up for a great life. And they get to be a person who gets to make choices and also experience the consequences of those different choices. I don't need to protect them from every choice that they make. I want to do my best and protect them where it's appropriate. Because I think there's times that we do as parents see more clearly. And there's that flip side sometimes where I'm like, oh, actually, this would be the wise choice. I've lived more life than you. Are you going to choose to listen to what I am saying? Or are you going to choose to make another choice and have to reap the consequences of that choice? And can I live with that? Can I be safe enough even within myself? Can I be settled enough? Can I lean into trust enough? Knowing that, you know, for us as women of faith, it's not just me that I'm thinking of parenting. It's like God is helping me too. God loves my children. Great is the peace of my children, for they will be taught of the Lord. That's always one of the verses that I pulled on from Isaiah 54. It's like, I'm not the only one who has to do this. And can I lean into trust and go, even if my children aren't doing exactly what I think they should be doing, can I trust that I am not the only one looking out for their best and highest good?

SPEAKER_01 37:24

I think what you're talking about is like pulling in the abundance of the goodness of God. God is actually a part of not only our lives, but our children's life helps you unhook from a place where this is all on me and I have to get this right. And every fumble that our kid does equals disaster. Trust me, from someone who has literally believed that, like I said, of projecting 20 years ahead. Hopefully I share that just so it's relatable of like in that projection full of shame, there's the absence

Transitioning to Adulthood

SPEAKER_01 37:56

of God. There's the absence of God's goodness because that's just the most disastrous, catastrophizing experience. Consciously bringing in these beliefs really impact the way you can show up for your kid. And therefore they start to believe, oh, I am allowed to learn. I'm safe to learn. God's with me. It's not so high stakes.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Not as high stakes as we sometimes make it. Yeah. Let's talk about adult children. Let's talk about some ways that codependency shows up there.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

My oldest is 20. And so personally, what I noticed is that there was a lot of high stakes around choosing what you're gonna do for the rest of your life as an 18-year-old. And I'm like, this is insanity. I'm like, how are 18-year-olds supposed to know? A lot of what young adults are are are experiencing for the first time is that they're it's normal for them to even feel a wave of being hit with all the experiences of living on their own. They're gonna have their whole, they're gonna have a whole emotional gamut of experiences if they move out, if they don't move out. Choices are so different, especially if a kiddo leaves home. I notice a lot of time because it's such an attachment adjustment for parents that this adjustment affects them a lot. And oftentimes you'll see a lot of behaviors that will try to meet these attachment needs. Like I have a need to be connected to the kiddo who's across the country. And so sometimes we feel their feelings, we project what they might be feeling, we we worry about them because we think that's helping them. And I think that an over sense of judgment a lot of times, like they're screwing up or that's the wrong person they're dating. I think there it's a it's an attempt at connection, but there's a lot of healthy ways to actually truly be connected and not just have emotional ameshment and like I'm just gonna go and feel all their feelings. What other things do you think are coming up for uh parents of adults?

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Yeah, I think there can be unsolicited life advice, throwing in your two cents when it isn't asked for. I think there can sometimes be a lack of respecting boundaries. I'm fortunate in that my in-laws haven't been like this with me, but I've definitely heard stories at times where adult children, maybe they're getting married, they're having their own children, they're starting to set up their own family culture, and sometimes parents are having a hard time respecting boundaries, respecting the fact that their children might be making different lifestyle choices or parenting choices than them, different relationship choices than they would agree with or advise. Are you going to get overly involved? Are you going to honor a boundary when it's set, or are you going to push things? I think sometimes it can show up with kind of little side comments like, oh, well, I guess you don't have time for me anymore, or I guess you're too busy. And it comes across as this kind of manipulative language of woe is me. And that can come from a place where if you haven't taken time to make sure your identity isn't just wrapped up in your role as a parent. Do you have your own interests? Do you have your own relationships? Do you have your own dreams and goals so that your life isn't summed up in your relationship with your children? Because I think when we can have outside influences and things that we find fun and fulfillment in, then doesn't necessarily make it easy for our children to grow up and move away. But steering clear of some of those weird, controlling, manipulative things that parents can do when they don't have a good sense of autonomy for themselves can keep that overly involved behavior pattern going on, even when there really needs to be a clear delineation between this is my life, this is my children's lives. They might not choose to do these things the same way I would, but that is their choice. And I need to respect that.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

I would even say it is that once the kiddo's out of the house, there's a sense of loss of connection because they don't need you the same way they've always needed you. And I think that's for one, true. They don't need you in the same way. And also it's a rewiring of what connection really means. Connection isn't just being needed, it's what you want it to be and what you and each of those kids can create together, like the sense of relationship that feels good to the both of you. I see parents of adults struggle with the kids learning in those early 20s, even into early marriage. I have people that I know that struggles to believe that they can do it, that the decisions they're making are the right decisions. And here's the truth: you you can have beliefs about anybody. I'm not trying to say you don't have your own opinion. However, if I'm responding from that belief, my kid can't handle this feeling, they can't handle the challenge of finals, they can't handle da-da-da-da-da-da. Those beliefs are being projected onto the kid. And I and I do think that that deeply impacts relationship and the ways the parent is trying to alleviate the feeling that if you could just believe or think or do the things that I want you to do the way I think is the best, then I can feel better about you and your life.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

And I think that's an important codependent hook to notice. I feel like parenting is just such a great invitation into expanding my own capacity to sit in my own discomfort and again build my own shame resiliency, build my own emotional growth. I think if you're a parent who has grown up with a there's one right way to do things, that can feel very hard to accept if your children then choose to do something in a different way to the acceptable way or the right way of doing um doing something.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Yeah. And I mean, speaking from where I stand too, this is similar to how Having teenagers, but on a different degree, is that I I think that 20-something kiddos really do need their parents quite a bit still. And also they need a lot of autonomy. You're over there doing your own thing. And then when they feel like they need something, you're just, oh, okay, here we are. You're kind of being back. And I do want to name that because it feels over 20-something years the adaptation for a parent in their connection and in their roles is changing so much. And so we just want to name that. Like for reels, it's a lot. Like you, I remember when my kids were little and I'd be like, oh, I've just changed, you know, like bedtime routines changed, the way they handled certain things changed. Like just like that, they're changing. And so it is one of those experiences, it is challenging.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

It's very challenging.

Parenting Pitfalls With Adult Children

SPEAKER_00 44:49

One final point that I would make just with adult children is, and I think this can show up in younger ages too, but could be a propensity to try to rescue. Oh, they're struggling financially. I'll give them some money to bail them out. Oh, they're they've made a mess over here. I'll I'll clean it up for them. And just this kind of rescue mentality, it really is a stage where our children, when they're adults, it's learning where is that balance between, okay, there might be an appropriate time. Okay, they do need help. And it would be great for me to come and help them in this moment, but making sure that it's not coming from a place of I'll keep them dependent on me because mommy's credit card's always available or the bank account. I'm paying for your Uber every week or that kind of thing. And you're not really learning what it is to stretch your own wings and leave the nest and be able to fly on your own because mommy's funding you all the time, that kind of thing. There's a fine line between going, hey, I'm available and maybe if I have the means, I can help you out. But are you also learning how to make your own financial choices and reap the consequences of those choices again? And can you work for yourself? And can you take some risks and learn to step out on your own and maybe trip and fall and get back up again without me swooping in to rescue you every time something becomes a little bit uncomfortable? That's so good. That's so relatable. There might be some things that we've talked about with ways codependency could show up in adults that you're like, oh, my kid's eight and I'm doing that. We've segmented into different age ranges, but realistically, as we heal from these behavior patterns and things like that, it can show up in all different ways. And the purpose of this episode today really is just taking a moment to identify some common behaviors that we might find ourselves in when our children are in certain stages. And if you're listening to this podcast, you probably have some desire to grow in your own emotional and spiritual journey. So our hope is that even as you might see yourself in some of these behaviors, that it's more of an aha and not a condemnation because we are coming here as two moms who have had to navigate our own fair share of codependency and are still navigating it on a regular basis and just pulling back the curtains a little bit and saying, hey, look, this is common for so many of us. And it doesn't make you a bad parent. It doesn't mean make you a bad person. It just simply extends an invitation for us all to recognize some behaviors. And then next week, we're going to dive into a conversation around how to show up in healthier ways. So I do see myself in some of these behavior patterns. So what now? And so we're going to talk next week about some healthy ways to parent and ways that you can begin to heal in your own codependency if you do see yourself in some of these kind of dysfunctional patterns.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

Parenthood is such a complex experience. The needs and demands and the amount of times we have to adapt, notice what's happening in ourselves, self-parent, and then the kiddos changing constantly. When you think about the moment they first draw their breath to, you know, when they're gone. So all of these attachment and growth and autonomy things are really a big deal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

So join us next week for part three when we talk about healing from codependency and parenting. Um, we hope to see you there, friends. Yeah. See you soon.